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Post Info TOPIC: '64 Poncho 283's did come with camel-hump heads...


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'64 Poncho 283's did come with camel-hump heads...


I never thought that 283's of any kind - Chevy, Pontiac or whatever came with 327 camel-hump heads. But we just got the original GM info on our car and the engine is a 283...and it has camel - hump heads. One of you (thanks) showed an illustration of a shop manual that said that in '64 at least the Pontiac 283's (and maybe all of them) came with the 327 heads to bring the compr. ratio up to 9.25:1. I suspected all along that ours was a 283 because it came with a 2 bbl. and single exhaust and both 327 engine options in '64 came with duals and a 4 bbl. But it was the camel-hump heads that confused me. So you live and learn...just thought I'd share this so that others don't automatically figure they have a 327 just because they have the double-hump heads..

And one other thing I found out from GM - for any of you that have the Parisienne Custom Sport convertible, they only made a little over 2900 of them in '64..so it's a pretty rare piece...!

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you had mentioned a while back that your convertible came from Alberta? reason I ask.... is that my granma had one ( became her's after my Uncle passed away in 71 ) and she drove it up until the early 80's. They lived in Whiterock BC when it was sold. It wasn't running well , and it sat for a bit, some fellows came buy and helped Grandpa get it running , then sold it to them for $400......around 1981?? there abouts.

Grandma is still mad at grandpa about that ,, it was her car ' she tells me' !! ( grandpa passed away in 1989 )

Just wonder if you've seen one around your area??

Her car was Black , white top, and she seems to remember it having a blue interior? but not 100 % on that . was a 283 car and was bought new in the lower mainland.

she thought she saw in about 3 years ago parked on a street? not sure if she said Whiterock??

Family name was Kroeker.



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64ragtop wrote:

I never thought that 283's of any kind - Chevy, Pontiac or whatever came with 327 camel-hump heads. But we just got the original GM info on our car and the engine is a 283...and it has camel - hump heads. One of you (thanks) showed an illustration of a shop manual that said that in '64 at least the Pontiac 283's (and maybe all of them) came with the 327 heads to bring the compr. ratio up to 9.25:1. I suspected all along that ours was a 283 because it came with a 2 bbl. and single exhaust and both 327 engine options in '64 came with duals and a 4 bbl. But it was the camel-hump heads that confused me. So you live and learn...just thought I'd share this so that others don't automatically figure they have a 327 just because they have the double-hump heads..


One way that could possibly confirm or disprove it is the casting date on the heads. It's easy to do. Have you pulled a valve cover and looked at that?

 



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...no I haven't Carl but I will be doing that as we're installing some chrome valve covers shortly..thanks.

Rog, thanks for the story on your grandma's car. Our car is the original Tuxedo Black with an Aqua interior but the original owner of our car was a gentleman named Leo Pernisch and he lived on Haro St. in the West End near English Bay...

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..have seen only a couple of '64's around Vancouver and no convertibles. There's a nice black '63 running around town but it's a totally done machine from West Coast Customs in CA worth over $150K. There's also a really nice white-on-white '64 Custom Sport hardtop around town too - very, very clean and sounds great...Not many '64's Pontiacs around..I see a few '64 Impala ragtops around but they're all lowriders with the little 13" wheels and gold-plated control arms etc..nice cars but not my taste...!

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Here is one from a car show last year here in Winnipeg. 


PICT0374.JPG

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Where is this "illistration in a shop manual" that says there is camel humps on a 283?

I have never heard of such a thing from the factory.
Even the 327s did not have camelhumps unless they were 300HP or higher.(atleast until 1965)

I would like to see this shop manual info.

Very interesting topic.

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HPIM0405.JPG



I think there refering to this from another post.

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Yes,... that's the scan which I posted from my shop manual.  It's from the 1964 Pontiac Series 7000 (Oshawa) shop manual supplement.

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It does not seem to make sense to me. There was no 327 until 62 but from 58 to 61 you could get a 283 with 8.5 or 9.25 depending on what HP ordered. Then in 62 with the 327 the 283 was only offered as a 8.5. It seems it was in 63 and up that the 283 base V8 engine was now 9.25 to 1 ratio . Could the manual be refering to a different 327 head ? Seems to me the 250 HP 327 and the 283 might share the same head.

-- Edited by Beaumont4008 on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 03:03:53 PM

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...thanks Ian, and Randy, sorry I forgot your name y'day when I posted. I don't think there were different 327 heads other than the fuelie heads were there? Although I never thought that any 283's came with double-humpers either. But our GM manufacturing data shows this car as coming with a 283 and when we got it it had a 2 bbl and a single. I have reason to believe based on the general condition and apparent mileage of the car that the engine is original but we have yet to totally verify that. But based on Randy's manual (esp. if it is a GM publication) it would appear as if double-humpers were indeed installed on 283's in '64. It would also seem strange (as the engine compm't had no modifications whatever 'til we got it) that someone would go to all the trouble of installing double-hump heads on the engine and not also go with at least dual exhausts and possibly a 4 bbl. and manifold. All I'm saying is that this car was totally unmolested and it definitely appears to us that the engine is OEM to the car. Would love to know if anyone here knows anyone else (on this site or elsewhere) who might be knowledgeable on this subject and could shed some light on it. When we bought the car and saw the d-h heads we immediately assumed it was a 327. As I said, the only thing that made me think twice was the 2 bbl and single. I thought, "Who would retrofit a 2 bbl and a single on a 327?" Makes no sense. So I looked into it and voila! a 283 with apparently 327 heads...interesting to say the least....

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UK '64 Convertibles are even rarer, although not Custom Sports. The figure I have been given, not yet officially confirmed, is that only 54 RHD examples were produced with their specially made '61 dash panels. It's likely less than 10 survive thanks to our weather and winter salt.

They were all 2 barrel 283s with Powerglide so I shall now be trying to find out if I have camel-hump heads - whatever they are!

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Ches, look at the front face of either head just above where they meet the block. Do they have two semi-circular "bosses" there cast into the head? If so, then the engine has the 327 'double-hump' or 'camel-hump' heads with the larger valves.

As an aside, how do you afford gas for that thing in Britain....?? 

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Beaumont4008 wrote:




HPIM0405.JPG



I think there refering to this from another post.





OK, you guys are reading this totally wrong.

The first paragraph states that the 283 and 327 use the same head and have a 9.25 ratio.
This means that the 283s and the base 250HP 327 engines use the same "896" # witches hat heads.....totally correct.

The second paragraph states that the higher horse 327s(L30, L74). have 10.5:1 and the other advancements......these are the motors that use camel humps.

There is no way in the world that 283s ever had camel humps from the factory in 1963 or 1964.





Niel, i dont want to sound negative, but there is no way your 283 had camels from the factory.  Either someone put them on a 283,  or you have a full blown 327 in your car.     Alot of times it is hard to tell them apart.
Is your block # the same as your GM docs?


 



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..very nice...!

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...well I'm certainly no expert but we def. do not have the "witch's hat" heads..and the manual does not specifically state that the 2 327 engines (the L-30 and the L-74) had different heads however I can agree that the compression ratio differences between the two hp versions would lead one to deduce that these ratios were achieved by the use of either different heads or different pistons...so I'm still confused..maybe somebody over the last 46 years simply bolted a pair on..but I still go back to my original thought - why would somebody go to all that trouble (i.e. for performance..) and not put duals and a 4 bbl. on it while they were at it. Makes no sense to put d'h's on it and run them into a single exhaust...and the engine is def. a 283..anybody else have any ideas..?

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That is interesting,  would be neat to know the full history.
any pics of your motor?

out of curiosity, how do you know for sure that it is a 283? 

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Comes down to what block casting  number is on the back of the block . That will tell the tale if a 327 or 283. And what head casting number for what era of double humps.  No mater what sounds like you have a good set of heads on you 283 or 327.

 

37958961964283
327
195, 220
250
1.72/1.5059.669Used in 1964 and 1965.
37824611964
1965
1966
327
327
327
300
250, 300
275
1.94/1.5062.076Production ended approximately June of 1966 and replaced with #3890462. Casting symbol on exterior face of head is the infamous double-hump design.
File photo


-- Edited by Beaumont4008 on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 05:47:20 PM

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The GM Historical documentation we just got from Oshawa says it came with a 283/195. That jives with the carb/exhaust setup that was on it. Tried to get the engine no. off the back of the block last week but a large bracket was right in the way and I had decent clothes on at the time so wasn't going to climb in there w/a flashlight. I'll get it. The number on the pass. side block deck in front of the head says V299349 and one of the guys posted last week that all 283 engine ID's started with a V. The owner's manual also mentions nothing about a 283/220, just outlines engine options for Pontiac for '64 as 230/140 six, 283/195, 327/250-300 and 409/340-400-425. That's it. So the question is, if indeed 327 heads came on our car (which the GM shop manual says they did), were they shared with only the 327/250 or both 327's? Because ours are not the triangular "witch's hat" heads, they're the rounded camel-hump ones...). This sure has been fun...I know more than I did last week but not enough yet...! Thanks to everyone for your input. Great bunc...and smart too..!

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64ragtop wrote:

The GM Historical documentation we just got from Oshawa says it came with a 283/195. That jives with the carb/exhaust setup that was on it. Tried to get the engine no. off the back of the block last week but a large bracket was right in the way and I had decent clothes on at the time so wasn't going to climb in there w/a flashlight. I'll get it. The number on the pass. side block deck in front of the head says V299349(this # should also be on your GM docs from george Zapora) one of the guys posted last week that all 283 engine ID's started with a V(I would not take that to be set in stone on a canadian car tho). The owner's manual also mentions nothing about a 283/220(thats because it was only on chevelles/beaumonts), just outlines engine options for Pontiac for '64 as 230/140 six, 283/195, 327/250-300 and 409/340-400-425. That's it. So the question is, if indeed 327 heads came on our car (which the GM shop manual says they did)(No, it just says that the newly designed witches hat 896 heads are now being used on 283s as well as 327 for 1964),
were they shared with only the 327/250 or both 327's?(only 896 heads are use on 250 hp 327 and 283s)
 Because ours are not the triangular "witch's hat" heads, they're the rounded camel-hump ones...). This sure has been fun...I know more than I did last week but not enough yet...! Thanks to everyone for your input. Great bunc...and smart too..!

Your GM documentation will have the engine serial # on the paperwork.  This # with match a number on the FRONT block pad beside the waterpump.
If those numbers are not the same, you engine has been changed out to a 327 or something.  That is the best way to tell for sure




 



-- Edited by beaumontguru on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 07:09:31 PM

-- Edited by beaumontguru on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 07:11:10 PM

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Dave. I"ll take your point at face value re which 327 heads are on our car as I'm just not knowledgeable enough to know. But I can tell you that the V number on the pass. side block deck bears no resemblance whatsoever to the engine ser. no. that came with our GM documentation from George Z. I unfortunately don't have that GM number in front of me as the doc's are being framed to give to my son as a b'day present. But I can get it shortly. But the numbers aren't just different they're totally separate-looking numbers. I think that if anything's going to match up (or at least lok similar) it'll be the GM number from George and the one on the back of the engine block (which I can't get to..). Does that sound right to you? I'll get that GM number to see if it tells you anything..

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On your GM docs from george zapora, there will be a separate line stating the engine NUMBER.  This should match exactly to the engine number on the FRONT of the block.  If it is not the same, the engine has been changed.

The #s on the rear of the block are just the casting #s.

Wait untill you get the GM docs in your hands, then you will know for sure if your engine is original for your car.

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64ragtop wrote:

The GM Historical documentation we just got from Oshawa says it came with a 283/195. That jives with the carb/exhaust setup that was on it. Tried to get the engine no. off the back of the block last week but a large bracket was right in the way and I had decent clothes on at the time so wasn't going to climb in there w/a flashlight. I'll get it. The number on the pass. side block deck in front of the head says V299349 and one of the guys posted last week that all 283 engine ID's started with a V. The owner's manual also mentions nothing about a 283/220, just outlines engine options for Pontiac for '64 as 230/140 six, 283/195, 327/250-300 and 409/340-400-425. That's it. So the question is, if indeed 327 heads came on our car (which the GM shop manual says they did), were they shared with only the 327/250 or both 327's? Because ours are not the triangular "witch's hat" heads, they're the rounded camel-hump ones...). This sure has been fun...I know more than I did last week but not enough yet...! Thanks to everyone for your input. Great bunc...and smart too..!



i dont know were those stamped numbers came from, got two 64 engine one a 300 horse the other a 283 they both use the numeric coding ie trans code, year, engine, production number being assosiated with our car club for many years checked many numbers 63to 66 same coding. as far as heads you really dont want camel humps on a stock 283 kills copression 64cc heads. power pack is only 62 or less. on my 327 they are milled my whole chamber is only 64cc with the head gasket

 



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blkvin.jpg

Here is where the code should be that matches the GM docs engine #. passenger side machined pad above water pump.




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When you are back there again to look at the block casting number, also check on the back on the opposite side (same spot but behind the passenger side this time) and you should see something like a C 11 4 type of number. The letter is the month, A= Jan, B= Feb and so on, then the date 1-31 for the date, then 3 or 4 for the year, as in 63 or 64. That will help to see if the block is original or not.

Honestly, I am with Dave on this one. I doubt they are original but again, why would someone do that unless it needed heads and they had a set of rebuilt heads around and just used them up.

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