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Post Info TOPIC: stock front suspension


Addicted!

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stock front suspension


Ok friends ,im really needing honest answers from thoughs of you that have 66-67 Acadians or novas ,does  the stock front suspension really suck that bad ,even with complete new stock replacement parts .One of my friends claims he has built 10 of these cars in the last 20 years and said to me you could get a allingment of friday ,drive it for the weekend and need as new allingment on Monday.Is it that bad .I dont want to spend the money on all new stock replacement parts and still have a car that handles terrible ,if this is the case i would rather put new suspension in it right off the bat.Jimmy

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A Poncho Legend!

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I have experienced both ways. I've owned a number of 62-67 X body cars.

I had a 66 SS project car that I completely restored. I could not get it to hold an alignment for NOTHING. I finally sold the car.

I have a 65 Canso. I changed ball joints just before driving it to Chicago for a car show. I wore out the inside of a brand new set of front tires going the 850 miles there. While there, I got an alignment (it took him 2 tries to get it right) and after that I could drive that car for a mile on a nice new section of straight highway without touching the steering wheel !!! (Well, not quite but you get the drift.)

I am not sure what to tell you. All the Nova boys say that the CPP front end kit is very good (and affordable) and some say the Church Boys kit is even better. It costs a little bit more.

I may try a kit anyway because they say the improvement in handling is incredible.

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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles 

1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars (now converted to a "factory" 4 speed)

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the friday/monday story is true especially if you got good jam and a 4 speed.Very poor design.There is lots of things you can do to help them out,but they dont callem shakey2s for nuthin.Sway bar helps alot.idler arm dearing kit helps steering.welding a plate on the bottomA arm helps out also welding the cam eccentrics in place after an allighnment can help.Hell,part of the thrill is feeling that shakey2 twist while banging gears full throttle.You gotta live the life,man!Or spend alot of money and get a TCI front suspension which i hear is quite nice....I hear!

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Poncho Master!

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The main problem is one of "bump steer" If you ever drive beside a 62-67 you can actaully see the wheels toeing in and out as the suspension moves up and dowm. I'm just refering to normal road conditions, not big bumps. The cause of this is that the inner tie rod is not pivoting with the lower control arm so the toe in is continually changing as the suspension travels. Along with poor steering this also leads to excessive ball joint and tire wear. I helped a friend fix this issue on his 67 Canso many years ago and the results were very worth while. What is needed is to make a drag link that places the inner tie rods evenly with the lower control arm pivot so there is no unwanted steering during normal suspension travel. I'm not familiar with the kits mentioned but they probably address this issue.

Thanks
Randy

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This page describes the installation of Classic Performance Products' 62-67 Nova mini-subframe kit. The original setup is a lower control arm with one pivot point, and a strut rod. The CPP kit replaces the lower control arm (LCA) with a more modern two-pivot setup, and eliminates the strut rod. The result is a much more stable front suspension. I had completely rebuilt the stock suspension, and was still having trouble getting the alignment to stay put. I have not put many miles on the kit yet, but I can already say that it's got a much more solid feel than it did before.

CPP has several versions of this kit. The basic kit has the new LCAs, and everything you need to install them. The next step up includes new front springs and spindles, while the deluxe kit includes upper control arms as well. Check http://www.classicperform.com for more details. You can also purchase the kit through National Nostalgic Nova http://www.nnnova.com and several other Nova parts vendors. As of this writing, the basic kit is about $350.

I kept my original spindles for this swap. I did not notice any significant change in the positioning of the wheel in the wheelwell, either front-to-back, or track width wise.

[WARNING/DISCLAIMER: use this information at your own risk, modifying automobile suspension systems can lead to dangerous situations, always have a trained mechanic check your work, I take no responsibility for the results, you've been warned, you're on your own...]

The instructions that come with the kit are...sparse. Although it's not very difficult to install, hopefully this page will help fill in some of the details.

General tips:

- Leave all of the plate and pivot bolts very loose until you have everything installed. Then go back and make a few passes to gradually tighten everything up to the final torque.

- You will need a way to support the front of the car so that you can have both wheels off at the same time. I used metal ramps underneath the subframe just behind the firewall.

- The lower balljoints need to be removed from the spindle. They are usually very difficult to get out without the proper tools. I used a 'pickle fork' to wedge in between the balljoint and spindle. There are also gear-puller style tools that can be used to force the balljoint stud out of the spindle. There's not much room to hammer in there.

- You will need a front end alignment after the kit has been installed.

- Make sure things are basically straight before you start. If you have accident damaged suspension pieces to start with, you should get things straightened out before you try installing this kit.

- The original strut rod brackets need to be removed to install this kit. This can be the single most difficult part of the installation, as most originals were riveted on at the factory. An air hammer seems to be the easiest way to get these out. I drilled through the heads of the rivets with a 1/4" drill, then used a cold chisel to snap them off. That operation isn't pictured here as I did that years ago as I needed to replace the brackets to repair some modifications done by a previous owner.

- CPP seems to be working the bugs out of the kit somewhat, the flat washers that came in the big hardware bag with the nuts and bolts did not fit on the bolts. They were just a tad too small. After fussing around with one for a few minutes, I discovered a separate bag of replacement flat washers that fit great.

- The general hardware bag has 14 sets of nuts/bolts/flatwashers/lockwashers. 10 of those are used to attach the plate to the mounting points that the strut rod brackets were attached to. The other 4 are used to attach the balljoints to the LCAs.

cpplca707.jpg OK, let's get started...

cpplca708.jpg Wheels off, car on jacks...

cpplca709.jpg Here's the 'before', the lower control arms have got to go

cpplca710.jpg Front shot showing stock LCA and strut rod

cpplca711.jpg Here's what you get in the box

cpplca714.jpg Tubular LCAs, frame plate, and hardware

cpplca715.jpg Enough of the pretty new parts. Keep working! Strut rod removed. The 4 bolts on the rod housing are rivets on most cars. You'll need to grind off the rivet heads to remove the strut rod housing. The strut rod unbolts from the LCA. You may need to remove the strut rod to get access to the rivet heads.

cpplca716.jpg Here's where the strut rod attached to the LCA. You will also need to remove the cotter pin and castle nut from the lower balljoint stud.

cpplca717.jpg Removing the camber adjustment bolts

cpplca718.jpg ...and the castle nut on the lower balljoint

cpplca719.jpg The LCA caster eccentric bolts being removed

cpplca720.jpg ...which detaches that end of the LCA from the car.

cpplca721.jpg Pickle fork tool used to get the lower balljoint out of the spindle.

cpplca722.jpg Test fit of the frame plate...interference! My car had Ol'Skool tow tabs on it. They need a trim on the corner to clear the plate.

cpplca726.jpgtow tabs removed, bolts installed...very loose to start.

cpplca727.jpgAll the holes line up!

cpplca728.jpgHere's the plate from the engine compartment.

cpplca731.jpgHard to see, but there's holes down there. You will need to remove, or at least loosen the radiator to get access to the holes under there.

cpplca732.jpgNew balljoint (included in kit) installed in the new LCA. The 3 dark bolts are in the bag with the balljoint. The other two are in the plate hardware bag. TIP: now is a good time to put some grease in that fitting.

cpplca733.jpgBalljoint all snug in the new LCA. The instructions for the balljoints say 22-26 lb-ft on the three black bolts, and they didn't mention the two larger ones. I tightened those to 60 lb-ft, TIP: Turn the stud on the balljoint so that the hole for the cotter pin is facing front to back. That will make it easier to put the cotter pin in later on.

cpplca734.jpgHoisted into position...

cpplca735.jpgpivot bolts in...crown nut on balljoint. The pivot eccentric bolts can be installed two ways. The parts bags have round and octogon washers. You can use either style (but you should pick one and use it everywhere). The round ones have the advantage of giving you finer control on the alignment, but the stock setup (that used these) was notorious for slipping after the alignment. The octagon washers can be rotated to get a variety of offsets, but you only have those offsets to choose from when doing the alignment. On the plus side, the octagon washers won't change setting. I used the octagon ones, and installe them at the '0' setting everywhere. On my car, that happened to work out to close to the right setting.

cpplca736.jpgEverything is sorta connected now, but it's all still very loose. The CPP instructions didn't specify, but I put all the bolt heads on the topside, and all the nuts on the underside. I used one flat washer on top, and a flat washer and lockwasher underneath.

cpplca737.jpg All tightened up and ready to go. Again, the CPP instructions didn't specify any torque readings, so I tightened all of the plate bolts to 60 lb-ft. I also tightened the pivot/eccentric bolts to 60 ft-lb.

cpplca742.jpg Adjusting the toe-in. The tie rod adjusters need to be set for proper toe in. Here is 2/32", (or 1/16") toe in. The gauge is from http://www.eastwood.com and is great for setting toe-in, but doesn't help for caster or camber.

cpplca743.jpg Finished!

cpplca744.jpg Other side too!

Now you're going to want to get a real alignment to make sure everything is pointing the right direction. Don't forget to lube the new balljoints (the package says they're pre-lubed from the factory, but I don't trust 'em...) and put in the cotter pins on the balljoint castle nuts.

patman@bracketracer.com

Unless otherwise specified, all text and images on this page are © Copyright 2006 by Pat Mancuso.

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1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 45,000 original miles 

1966 Grande Parisienne, 396 1 of 23 factory air cars (now converted to a "factory" 4 speed)



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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nice job carl you did all that tonite? looks like that would work alot better than the old....

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Poncho Master!

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These pictures can give you an idea of the problem, the inner tie rod does not pivot at the same pivot point as the lower control arm. If you look under just about any vehicle you will probably notice the relationship between the lower control arm pivot and inner tie rod. There would be an imaginary line running straight through them front to back.

Thanks
Randy



cpplca734.jpg


 

cpplca736.jpg 


cpplca743.jpg 

 






 



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Sherwood Park
Alberta, Canada

 

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so this kit isnt correcting this condition Randy?You have sharp eyes for a 97 year old.....haha

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Poncho Master!

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timbuk wrote:

so this kit isnt correcting this condition Randy?You have sharp eyes for a 97 year old.....haha



I don't want to comment on this kit as it looks like it was just getting assembled, there may be more to it. The pictures show the relationship between the two pivot points which can make it easier for someone to visualize. My eyes are poor but I have reading glasses with me always.

Thanks
Randy

 



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Addicted!

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i have a ccp kit in all fore of my nova /acadian cars the only way to go
62 rag top
63 wagon
65 canso sd
66 canso sd
6 pac mccormack

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69 acadian2 DR 6 auto sold

65 canso SD  v8 sold

65 canso SD v8

65 canso wagon 6 sold

62 Beaumont rag 6 sold

66 canso S D v8 3 sp on the tree

62 Beaumont ht sold

69 Acadian 2dr 6 auto sold

62 nova rag top 6 auto  in parts sold

72 Ventura II



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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so are they 350 bucks from hotrods and classics?whats a 6pacmcormak?

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http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t51640378/timbuks-first-invader/ http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t63146560/timbuks-second-invader/  vancouver island



Addicted!

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i got the last three from the old car center in langley 525 .
thats 6 pac mccormack

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69 acadian2 DR 6 auto sold

65 canso SD  v8 sold

65 canso SD v8

65 canso wagon 6 sold

62 Beaumont rag 6 sold

66 canso S D v8 3 sp on the tree

62 Beaumont ht sold

69 Acadian 2dr 6 auto sold

62 nova rag top 6 auto  in parts sold

72 Ventura II

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Addicted!

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you can by the full kit or just the low mini kit ,that what i did and replace all the stock upper stuff as well. the full kit is over a g , i also up graded to disc brakes on the cars ,the wagon has drop spidles disc and the lower kit rides super nice


-- Edited by acadiansrus on Monday 17th of January 2011 01:50:03 AM

-- Edited by acadiansrus on Monday 17th of January 2011 01:54:40 AM

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69 acadian2 DR 6 auto sold

65 canso SD  v8 sold

65 canso SD v8

65 canso wagon 6 sold

62 Beaumont rag 6 sold

66 canso S D v8 3 sp on the tree

62 Beaumont ht sold

69 Acadian 2dr 6 auto sold

62 nova rag top 6 auto  in parts sold

72 Ventura II



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

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lookin good...bustin ass on the big shop addon before the regional district imposes building permits gotta get my ruffcut lumber in the air that stuff is heavy!

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http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t51640378/timbuks-first-invader/ http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t63146560/timbuks-second-invader/  vancouver island



Addicted!

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you better get a move on

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69 acadian2 DR 6 auto sold

65 canso SD  v8 sold

65 canso SD v8

65 canso wagon 6 sold

62 Beaumont rag 6 sold

66 canso S D v8 3 sp on the tree

62 Beaumont ht sold

69 Acadian 2dr 6 auto sold

62 nova rag top 6 auto  in parts sold

72 Ventura II



Veteran Member

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Posts: 84
Date:

Purchased the lower and upper kit last Christmas and I'm just getting into the install now. No way I was going with an entire front clip, besides I like the look of the original shock towers. As I tore the old components off the car I quickly realized why my car handled so poorly when I last drove it. Upper control arm bushings, shot. Lowers, shot. Spring perch bushings, completely distorted. Idler arm bushing, same. I'm replacing all tie rod ends while I'm at it to complete the upgrade and parts are on order to do the idler arm bearing upgrade.

My install is taking longer than necessary because I needed a new rad support and I also wanted to repaint stuff here and there to clean things up. 20+ years of oil and grease are gone and I'm reaching the home stretch.

If you decide to go with the Church Boys rack and pinion setup make sure you tell CPP when ordering. The CBR  lowers have a bend which accommodates the rack steering arms. I ordered the modified ones because I'm planning the rack upgrade in the future.

 
Here's progress as of tonight:






Check out the rot where the tortion bar bracket bolted to the core support. No doubt that connection was flexing further compounding drivability issues. Got a replacement core support so all will be good.
 


I have great expectations of this kit just reading about other installations over the last 3 years. The first thing I noticed is that there's zero deflection in both the upper and lower control arms because rubber bushings have been eliminated. The strut arm has been removed from the equation, and that alone makes this kit work in my opinion.

Here's the kit in action. Quite amayzing really:

http://www.superchevy.com/features/nova/sucp_1001_1967_chevy_nova_corner_carver/index.html

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