Photobucket
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: 1970 Pontiac LeMans... "The Jury"


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7493
Date:
RE: 1970 Pontiac LeMans... "The Jury"


the car is a legend here in qualicum...and so is John with his cigar!

__________________

http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t51640378/timbuks-first-invader/ http://canadianponcho.activeboard.com/t63146560/timbuks-second-invader/  vancouver island



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 19749
Date:

lueger68 wrote:

Was the M21 Muncie not built in 1970? Never asked him , didnt think of it


 The photo of the Data Tag says M20 so that's what went in in at the factory. Of course in keeping with the car the dealer might have added it in the same way that the stripes and 1969 spoiler were added once it got to the dealer.



__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7164
Date:

M20 on the data tag means nothing more than "4 SPEED "

it could have been built with a M20  M21  M22 , Saginaw, or a Borg

M20 is the RPO code for a 4 speed,  simply put ...



__________________

later...rog

AADD supporting member !!
I'm a collector...not a builder!!Located in sunny central Saskatchewan at the lakehead!


Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1347
Date:

I see guys cool thanks! Also all the bill of sale says is 4spd manual transmission

__________________

 avatar?id=1542123&m=75&t=1389907469

     68-2dr/HT
   

      



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 19749
Date:

Roger, you are correct for the period 1963 through 1965, RPO M20 was used as the 4 speed code and the factory decided which trans to install based on rear axle ratios etc...



__________________

Ray White, Toronto ON

1973 LeMans 454 "Astro-Jet"

Built March 9, 1973 - Oshawa ON

1993 Corvette Convertible LT 1

Polo green metallic & tan  - Bowling Green Kentucky 






A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

that sorta makes sense    3.90 gear would work ok with close ratio  



__________________

 



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 500
Date:

I did take some vids of  " The Jury "  but here is a quick one to see her in motion.. And how she sounds...  This car only has 53,000 miles on the origonal engine.. Amazing!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlKoFPKWT-o&feature=youtu.be



__________________
Pete


Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1952
Date:

M20 AS STATED ABOVE IS THE CODE FOR 4 SPEED. I HAVE HAD A LOT OF 4SPD. '78-'80 MALIBU'S, MONTES, ECT. OVER THE YEARS AND THEY ALL HAD M20 ON THE DATA TAGS. IT LEADS A LOT OF PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE MUNCIES, THEY WERE NOT, THEY WERE ALL SAGINAWS IN THOSE YEARS ('78-'80). BUT, TRY EXPLAINING THAT TO A GUY WHO THINKS HIS '79 MALIBU HAS A FACTORY MUNCIE TRANS...LOL!disbelief



__________________

  
   MIKE



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 44221
Date:

On the Nova site someone posted these Jury pics. One of the members there said "I call BS" so I had to come to the defense of a very unique Canadian Poncho.

__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles "FAKE_66"



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1347
Date:

Good job Carl, pretty hard to call BS when we all spoke with the original owner and saw and took pics of the original bill of sale with his name on it also showing he purchased "The Jury" package! Not sure you can get more proof than that!!

__________________

 avatar?id=1542123&m=75&t=1389907469

     68-2dr/HT
   

      



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 2525
Date:

That guy is in a bubble and still thinks Pontiac's never came with Chevy engines. 



__________________


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 44221
Date:

lueger68 wrote:

Good job Carl, pretty hard to call BS when we all spoke with the original owner and saw and took pics of the original bill of sale with his name on it also showing he purchased "The Jury" package! Not sure you can get more proof than that!!


 I'm sure most of us have seen the newspaper ads from when they were new as well. Hard to dispute that one!



__________________

1966 Strato Chief 2 door, 427 4 speed, 44,000 original miles "FAKE_66"



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1347
Date:

He had a flyer in his back seat , put it on the other site Carl



__________________

 avatar?id=1542123&m=75&t=1389907469

     68-2dr/HT
   

      



Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7164
Date:

awesome pics !

would you say the stripe is a vinyl or painted ??   I would be assuming the car was repainted sometime in it's life...

 

I passed on a Jury 13 years ago when I bought my convertible Lemans..could only afford one or the other ...unfortunatly ..the Jury had been harvested for all the goodies ..and was just a shell....it's supposed to be around Saskatoon area still..being restored.



__________________

later...rog

AADD supporting member !!
I'm a collector...not a builder!!Located in sunny central Saskatchewan at the lakehead!


Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1347
Date:

Ya Rog , it was repainted and the owner said the decals have been painted on as the old stickers could not be saved and of course impossible to find so he had it paited exactly as they were originally

__________________

 avatar?id=1542123&m=75&t=1389907469

     68-2dr/HT
   

      



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 500
Date:

IMG_0021.JPGlueger68 wrote:

Ya Rog , it was repainted and the owner said the decals have been painted on as the old stickers could not be saved and of course impossible to find so he had it paited exactly as they were originally


 And they were done pretty good.. But, now adays he could get a damaged one scanned and re done , I had a right fender Judge stripe scanned and flipped to be a left one for a buddy once, because he did not want to buy a whole kit.



__________________
Pete


Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Status: Offline
Posts: 7164
Date:

pretty awesome job !  on the graphics !



__________________

later...rog

AADD supporting member !!
I'm a collector...not a builder!!Located in sunny central Saskatchewan at the lakehead!


A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

lueger68 wrote:

He had a flyer in his back seat , put it on the other site Carl


         Don't bother biggrin   Some of those guys are .....  can't read   



__________________

 



Uber Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3915
Date:

No doubt the 350 was done as an insurance thing. I am surprised that being an Oshawa car it has the blue block Pontiac engine, but I suppose it may have been because of the 4-speed. There were disclaimers that stated that engine selection depended upon other equipment ordered.  Also you could get a close ratio 4-speed with 3.90 rear gears as late as 1971 with the low compression 400 on any Lemans. The 350 & 400 Pontiacs differ internally, not externally so a physical bolt-up is a no brainer.

Pontiac stopped the 350 H.O. after 1969. There was no factory 4-barrel 350 Pontiac engine offered between 1970 through 1973. It was actually cheaper for Pontiac to make a 400 2-barrel than a 350 4-barrel.

By the time the 4th gen A-bodies were rolling off the lines (1978+ models) the Saginaw 4-speed was coded as RPO MM4. The Warner Super T-10 in Z28s & Firebirds with 400 V8s were coded RPO M21.

 

I have an old article in some defunct musclecar magazine from probably 20 years ago that covered the Canadian-made "Jury". It stated that the single exhaust 350 2-barrel was used, as well as a close ratio M21 & 3.90 Safe T Track rear. Unfortunately I do not have easy access to the magazine right now. I think that normally a 350 2-barrel would have used a Saginaw M20, so the steep gearing & M21 (quite possibly Warner Super T10 rather than a Muncie) would have ensured the rest of the drivetrain was tough. I have a 1971 picture of a new Pontiac V8 with a Super T10 ready for the assembly line drop, plus my neighbor's untouched 1972 Lemans GT with 400 & 4-speed had a Super T10.



__________________

67 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe, Oshawa-built stocker 250 Powerglide 40,000 mile

Also in garage waiting: stroker 296 cid inline six & built TH350

Cameron Milne, Toronto.


I am a walking encyclopedia with numerous pages missing.



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

CdnGMfan wrote:

No doubt the 350 was done as an insurance thing.

I am surprised that being an Oshawa car it has the blue block Pontiac engine, but I suppose it may have been because of the 4-speed.confuse 

I have an old article in some defunct musclecar magazine from probably 20 years ago that covered the Canadian-made "Jury". It stated that the single exhaust 350 2-barrel was used, as well as a close ratio M21 & 3.90 Safe T Track rear. Unfortunately I do not have easy access to the magazine right now. I think that normally a 350 2-barrel would have used a Saginaw M20, so the steep gearing & M21 (quite possibly Warner Super T10 rather than a Muncie) would have ensured the rest of the drivetrain was tough. I have a 1971 picture of a new Pontiac V8 with a Super T10 ready for the assembly line drop, plus my neighbor's untouched 1972 Lemans GT with 400 & 4-speed had a Super T10.


 890.jpg

1970_j10.jpg



__________________

 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

Interesting facts on the 4 speed and rear gears  and 26 cars not 25  

how the years fog the memories   lol  



__________________

 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

890.jpg



__________________

 



A Poncho Legend!

Status: Offline
Posts: 35601
Date:

BJ wrote:

Nice ride, how many of these were made?


          original owner of one says  12    

         magazine article refers to "Fleet manager" at the time

         quoting  20   6 automatic  

          NOT MANY  biggrin



__________________

 



Uber Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 3915
Date:

Carl, have you been digging through my stuff? That is the very article I was referring to. smile

I see that I am a little hazy on the facts. The article states that the cars had wide ratio M20 4-speeds, and my reference the the single exhaust came from the picture, not the text. Still the L65 350 was a single exhaust engine, unless either N10 Dual Exhausts were ordered, or the car was a GT-37 and came with the GTO exhuast system. Most likely the single exhaust system issue would have been "fixed" by any self respecting gearhead by the first weekend. Back then it might have meant throwing everything from the Y-pipe back into the dumpster, then rigging Cherry Bombs or Thrush mufflers and terminating them right under the floorboards.

 

Pontiac did still offere a close-ratio 4-speed with the 400 as late as 1971 on the Lemans. The 455 H.O. also used a close ratio box for the 4-speed but it was an M22 Muncie. Perhaps the close ratio behind a 400 also would have been an M22.  An original service manual, or a Features and Specs manual would tell the story more properly. Still, think of it, a small batch of cars done for 1 dealer. It almost sounds like a COPO. Given the 3.90 gearing behind the mild 350 in 1970, it may very well have been something like that.



__________________

67 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe, Oshawa-built stocker 250 Powerglide 40,000 mile

Also in garage waiting: stroker 296 cid inline six & built TH350

Cameron Milne, Toronto.


I am a walking encyclopedia with numerous pages missing.



Poncho Master!

Status: Offline
Posts: 1952
Date:

CdnGMfan wrote:

By the time the 4th gen A-bodies were rolling off the lines (1978+ models) the Saginaw 4-speed was coded as RPO MM4.

 


 THAT CLEARS UP SOMETHING I ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT, AS I POSTED ABOVE, THE DATA TAGS ON THE LATER A BODIES ('78-'80) HAD M20 STAMPED ON THEM, THE PAPERWORK FROM GEORGE AT V.V. ALL HAD M20, AND A COUPLE OF THEM LISTED MM4 AS WELL. I NEVER KNEW WHAT THE MM4 MEANT. I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT ODD THAT THERE WAS 2 TRANS. CODES LISTED ON ONE CAR. SO I GUESS THE M20 DESIGNATED THE CAR AS A 4SPD. AND THE MM4 WAS FOR THE SPECIFIC MAKE OF TRANS. TO BE INSTALLED.



__________________

  
   MIKE

«First  <  1 2 3  >  Last»  | Page of 3  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
.
Support Canadian Poncho!
Select Amount:
<
.
.
.