Have a look at this thread below John, we started documenting big block cars owned by members, not just B bodies but A bodies and X bodies as well. It's a start to answer your question. We know that in the years 427 was offered there were very few 427 4 speed combos, likely less than 20 each year. Survival? Only a handful.

BIG BLOCK Thread Click Here

Mondo Poncho wrote:

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 Can anybody tell me how many 427 cars- and/or 427 4 speed cars are still out there? 

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         17   

.......how'd that 409 sneak in there.......looks like a black 64

Can't say much about 67 & 68 model years , but it has been mentioned on this site before that there were only 12 1969 2+2 's built with that powertrain combo. ( I have a copy of a GM documented letter verifing Morley's 69 as 1 of 12  ) . I was always tempted .

 Too bad that car was later parted out , but I believe most of the parts went to help restore the Gold 69 .

  How many 69's are left ? .... perhaps 4-6 ?   

Hi Howmac

Would that 1 of 12 designation mean 1 of 12 427 4 speed 2+2 models in both hardtop and convertible? If so, that would be very similar to my understanding of the 1967 2+2 models- having 13 coupes and convertibles with 427 and 4 speed.

just thought i would share on this 427 thread..... my all original 68 caprice woody 9 passenger 427/385hp, disc brakes, tach/guages,wood sport wheel,ac, etc.

i bought a 69 427 /385hp ,auto,2+2 convertible in 1995 , red on white int, white top. the car was sold and is still in bc somewhere...... i still have the 427 motor for it. the engine is for sale ...maybe the purchaser can find the car and marry them up again.

Howmac wrote:

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Mondo Poncho wrote:

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Hi Howmac

Would that 1 of 12 designation mean 1 of 12 427 4 speed 2+2 models in both hardtop and convertible? If so, that would be very similar to my understanding of the 1967 2+2 models- having 13 coupes and convertibles with 427 and 4 speed.

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 The letter states 2+2 models with that powertrain combo , so i assume its for both hardtop and convertible 

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 correct

Actually, I think the numbers fit pretty well. I guess George Zapora will set me straight regardless, but here is what I've figured so far- with info from GM Canada docs, all available on this site. This info focuses on L36 B Body cars only, and years 1967-69 only.

When it comes to L36 cars, George seems to break down the models into 3 groups. (I state this based on Georges conversation with Elroy, and also looking at the other GM docs and the statements there.) There is the 2+2 group, which generally includes both coupe and convertibles. There is the regular Parisienne group, which includes (8cyl models of course- we are talking 427 cars) 2 door coupe, 2 door convertible, 4 door hard top and 4 door sedan. Then there is the "Sedan or Passenger" group that includes all the 8 cyl Laurentian and Strato Chief models. (And I'm guessing station wagons might be another group all together but I'm going to put those aside for now. Grande Parisienne models are also separate and another group I won't address here- just because I don't have much info on those- other than maybe there were 30 total GP's made with L36 in 1968).

These 3 groups are sometimes "overlapped" or categorized with the CDN Chevy counterparts when it comes to counting production numbers. For example, one GM document reads for 1967 "25 total produced with L36 and M20 in Biscayne, Bel Air, Laurentian and Strato Chief". Some overlap would probably occur between 2+2 models and Impala SS models. Same with regular Impala and Parisienne models. 

I'm going to make an assumption that each year 1967-69 had similar production numbers for L36 cars. Most likely, production would have dipped slightly each year after 1967, the same way it did in the Impala line in the US. Big muscle cars waned toward the end of the 60's. But I'm going to assume similar production numbers for each year.

What can I determine?  Well, for 1968

There were 29 total 2+2 models with L36 in Hardtop and Convertible, regardless of transmission. (From 1968 2+2 427 GM Docs)

17 Coupes and 12 Convertibles. (From GM docs 1 of 17- the old green rusty coupe) and (12 convertibles on production chart this website).

I can't say exactly how many of the 29 were 4 speeds, but using info from 1967 and 1969 we can make a guess. 

Todd posted a GM Doc that says there were 10 L36 4 speed cars in the 2+2 model- both coupe and convertible for 1969

I have a doc stating 13 L36 4 speed cars in the 2+2 model- both coupe and convertible for 1967 (remember- the "Same model only" will refer to all 2+2 models- coupes and convertibles, even though only the model number of the particular car that was documented is listed. The production info is taken from the whole 2+2 group in this case.That's why George Zapora worded it "less than 13" - because he said they were counted in a group of both coupe and convertibles and there were 13 total.)

Given 13 L36 4 speed cars in the 2+2 group, and 10 in the same group for 1969, I think it is probable that there may have been 10-13 L36 cars with 4 speed in the 1968 model year of 2+2. So in this relatively rare group of 2+2 models with L36 engines- about 1 car in 3 was equipped with a 4 speed. Probably similar for all 3 years.

Carl Stevenson posted a GM document that states (for 1968) there were a total of 19 L36 cars in the (V8 only) "regular Parisienne" category: 76439 - 4d Hardtop, 76467 - 2d convertible, 76469 - 4d sedan, and 76487 - 2d hardtop.

That leads me to believe that there is the third group- Laurentians and Strato Chiefs to be counted..... but I think it's safe to say that for 1968 there were 29 2+2"s with L36, with 17 coupes and 12 convertibles. Statistically speaking, 9 or 10 or 11 may be the correct number of the 29 total that have L36 and M20. Maybe 6 coupes and 4 convertibles as a breakdown? There were also 19 L36 cars in the regular Parisienne line. So we have 48 L36 cars in 1968 Parisienne and 2+2 groups- plus however many are in the Laurentian/Strato Chief group (which may or may not include wagons), plus 30 GP's. So 78 CDN Ponchos with L36 in 1968, plus the (so far) unknown number of wagons, Laurentuans and Strato Chiefs.

Back to overlapping. One GM document states "43 total Impala SS and Pontiac 2+2 models built for 1967 model year with L36. Since I already guessed that total L36 production in the 2+2 group would likely be equal to or greater than the 29 produced for 1968 (so let's say 30-35 1967 L36 2=2's)- that doesn't leave many L36 CDN built Impalas if the total is 43 for all. But I think that is explained this way. The 43 figure would only include Impala Super Sport models with the L36- not the RPO Z24 "SS427" cars. Most L36 Impalas in the 1967 model year would have been Z24 cars I'm guessing.

Also supporting the argument that there were 13 L36 M20 equipped 2+2 models in 1967- including both coupes and convertibles- in another GM document referring to 396 4 speed cars. It says there were 39 2+2's made for 1967 with 396 and M20. I think it is fair to assume there were many more 396 4 speed cars than 427 4 speed cars made. So if there were 39 396 stick cars, then 13 427 stick cars seems quite reasonable. Three times more 396 than 427. Also, if there were 25 L36 with M20 Chev and Pontiac "sedan group" cars made in 1967, then having about half that many 2+2 with that drivetrain seems to fit too.

I know I'm rambling so forgive me if it is hard to read. Or if it is wrong then please feel free to point that out also. I'd like to see more L36 GM Canada documents because I think with a little more info- a few more clues, the actual numbers might be there to figure out. Anybody have any other L36 GM docs I could see??

I will ask George Zapora as much as he will allow me to and report back!

You do realize that coupes and convertibles have different models #'s? 67 2+2 v8 convertible is 76867, 2+2 V8 coupe is 76887.  Elroy posted the docs on here a number of years ago. The "less than 13" was for model # 76867 2+2 convertibles With L36 M20 combo. 

Yes more recent docs from vintage services now seem to include the power train break downs in groups. Can you post a picture of the docs you have for the car? 

In 1967 they built 39 1967 impala SS coupes and convertibles with the L36 M20 combo. I would say that the 2+2's in 67 had a similar # produced With that power train combo. GM actually built more 67 2+2 convertibles than they did 67 Impala SS convertibles. Over 500 more which is actually a fair bit. 

There were no 67 Z24 cars here in Canada in 67. If you wanted one back then you would have to go state side to get one.