NUMBERS MATCHING:

KenT · Newbie

NUMBERS MATCHING:

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I'm not a numbers guy in any way, but I'll give it a go. In it's simplest form, I'd say it means engine and transmission should be documented as matching the body number.

I know it can be further distilled down to the glass, wheels, engine component and even radio date codes being required to match that body sequence date, but the big ones are surely the block and transmission.

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

You will need EVERYTHING that the car came delivered with. As it came out of the factory, not the dealer.
So.. numbers matching, engine block, tranny, diff, wheels, dist, alt, starter, radio, tach, speedo cluster.
Then the date must fall in line PREVIOUS to delivered, from 4-16 weeks (if there was no strike), glass, rear views, tranny, block, diff.

99 9/10 of every part on a GM car had a date code, you just have to recognize and know how to read them...ie, Julian code on the carb

HTH

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Would having ALL the right numbers not just change the term to "Concours", as opposed to the more generic "Numbers matching" ?

I mean, If I had a car with a confirmed as built block and transmission, I'd probably just naively call it numbers matching if someone asked. No?

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

Ken you've asked a great question. I suspect if everyone who has thoughts on this participates you are going to get a real multitude of answers. To the real purists, the ones who go to car shows and all they care about is winning trophies, every last date code has to be correct as well as every last casting number stamping number etc. To the guys who don't care about trophies and just enjoy their cars, they like to have it close but they don't lose sleep at night because of one minor detail not being correct. They're not concerned if one exhaust manifold has a date code that is questionably not correct for when the car was built. One of the questions that comes to mind is, how much do you want to spend keeping your car "original"? To me, it's not original as soon as the actual original part is removed from the car. Many would disagree with me but to me if you want totally authentic original it is completely unchanged. That means the exhaust manifold that's on the engine is the one that came off the assembly line with, or the distributor that's in the engine is the one that was in the engine when it came off the assembly line. Many would disagree with me. I'm in the camp that I love my car looking original and if I can find the right stampings castings date codes etc I'll put them on but it's easy to prove that my car is a fake. And I don't care!

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

And by the way, it would be great to see pictures of your project!

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

Concours is a completely different definition. It refers to "super detailed, super clean". Does not have to be #s matching...

Numbers matching will include ALL I previously stated...Just the block and tranny will not make it numbers matching

Example.. 67 Corvette..427 with a single Holley. Change it to 3-2 barrels, it was available that year but now the carbs don't match the time frame and option sheet.

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

So a car with an original block and original transmission but non-original carb/distributor/all manifolds/alternator/starter/water pump/fuel pump etc is considered a numbers matching car?

Canadian Poncho · A Poncho Legend!

I don't think we'll ever know the exact definition of "numbers matching". To some it's just engine/trans, to others it better still have the original fan belts and marker bulbs.

73SC · A Poncho Legend!

I know I have recounted this story before but as one might expect its a Corvette owner story, the likely inventors and promulgators of the Numbers Matching principle.

Original Owner of a 1970 Big Block Corvette comes to my space at the big Airport Toronto swap meet starts looking at the 50 or so quadrajets I had brought. We chat and he asks me if I have a 7040204 in the pile of carbs.

I reply no, but I have two at home. I never thought to bring that # carb to the swap given its relative limited market. He almost dies....His car was built with a 7040202 for a 350. He is original owner and never touched the carb. He only

found out when his car was being judged and points were deducted. Needless to say when I got home I Purolatored a carb to Jordan Station. I was selling cores for $50 that day so he got his dream come true carb for $50 + shipping.

pontorquer · Poncho Master!

The crazy thing is that some of these Carburetors like Quadrajet ... are worth more than the price of the car when it came out of the factory and sold at dealerships.

KenT · Newbie

It's great to hear all your comments on Numbers Matching. I guess mine stopped being original as soon as I received it from the Dealer. I ordered it "without tires" so when the dealer received it I gave them a set of UNIROYAL MASTERS to install, the ones with the red and white stripe sidewall. In doing this frame off restoration I have replaced the drums with disc's so that's going from a 14" wheel to a 17" mag. Also added power brakes for safety and a front and rear heavy duty sway bar. The floor had rusted out from sitting on grass for a couple of years so that has been replace. I'm trying to keep it looking like it did. Here are a couple of photo's. One from 1967 at Sauble beach when it was new and before I took it to Expo 67. The others are still a work in progress. I want to drive it again this summer is my goal.

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

PM sent

cdnpont · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

Ok,

Here's a way to approach it.

I have a white 69 427/390 2+2 M20. It has everything ancillary date code correct, but the block numbers don't jive, not even as a dealer warrantee replacement as people try to pass. It's not numbers matching, right?

I do have a second one, same identical car lacking all the small ancillary stuff being correct, but, it does have the block and transmission numbers matching with the body. Is it a numbers matching car?

CdnGMfan · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

cdnpont wrote:
Ok,
Here's a way to approach it.
I have a white 69 427/390 2+2 M20. It has everything ancillary date code correct, but the block numbers don't jive, not even as a dealer warrantee replacement as people try to pass. It's not numbers matching, right?
I do have a second one, same identical car lacking all the small ancillary stuff being correct, but, it does have the block and transmission numbers matching with the body. Is it a numbers matching car?

The white one I would describe as NOM, 2nd one, original "numbers" drivetrain but needs detailing & "restoration".

I think some of this obsession came from people wanting to ensure the car they were buying was not some thrown together hodgepodge. Another part comes from being impressed by an original survivor and wanting to duplicate the details. To some its a hobby, to some, art, and to most, $$$$ and nothing more.

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

4SPEED427 wrote:
So a car with an original block and original transmission but non-original carb/distributor/all manifolds/alternator/starter/water pump/fuel pump etc is considered a numbers matching car?

No

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

cdnpont wrote:
Would having ALL the right numbers not just change the term to "Concours", as opposed to the more generic "Numbers matching" ?
Backwards...ALL #s is #s matching
I mean, If I had a car with a confirmed as built block and transmission, I'd probably just naively call it numbers matching if someone asked. No?
Now you need the carb, intake, exhaust man, distributor, water pump, ps pump, alt, correct pulleys.. EVERYTHING

Corvette guys started it with NCRS (National corvette restoration society) in the late 80's. BUT the Z28 Camaro guys are over the top, down to correct bolts and head patterns etc. It's gone crazy and the $$ involved is astronomical.

I think that is the reason behind the "restorod" scene... eg. 63 split window coupe with a LS3

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

LT1Caddy wrote:
4SPEED427 wrote:
So a car with an original block and original transmission but non-original carb/distributor/all manifolds/alternator/starter/water pump/fuel pump etc is considered a numbers matching car?
No

So where is the line drawn? As soon as one of those items is not correct does it lose it's matching status? I'm not stirring up trouble and I don't really care, I'm just curious what guys use as parameters. I won't ever have one!

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

It's not "cut and dried" the parameters. But 90% would be my thought.... There would be lots of cars out there like that. The Vettes are that way because, they were a fair weather car, not used as everyday transportation and were expensive in their day as compared to other vehicles so they were "babied". So they would be stored for the winter, we know (now) how that can affect cars. So the carb would leak or the water pump, distributor would seize..... just replace that part from the dealer.

But if you had the car for sale today, and disclosed that it was #s matching except for the carb. A #s guy would be very interested in comparison to a NOM ( non original motor) because if he was going to attempt to show the car to NCRS standards that the carb would be easy to find.......

That's my best answer..

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

Ok, so by definition a numbers car would have some simple relatively easy to find component possibly needing to be upgraded to make it 100% authentic.

Some days it all seems trivial but I guess it's hard to fault guys for having a hobby, even if it becomes an obsession. Better than no hobby at all!

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

Simply put.. Yes

But it can be extremely hard to do. Then you have to get the correct date code, usually within 8 weeks before the cars production date..... That is why the $$ is so high for some of the correct parts....

The Camaro Z28 guys are paying insane $$ now to get correct bolt head markings, eg...$100 for valve cover bolts. Really!!

4SPEED427 · A Poncho Legend!

And the funny thing is, I've seen documents for big block cars where the engine was built almost 5 months before the car was produced.

And what if the engine failed before the vehicle was delivered. Not the customers fault he doesn't have the engine the car was built with, he bought the car brand new. We had that happen at the Pontiac dealership I worked at in the 80's.

All the stuff these big $$$ guys use as guidelines can have exceptions and some of the guys may not be very flexible with those exceptions. And that is when the fun goes out of the hobby.

LT1Caddy · Poncho Master!

4SPEED427 wrote:
And the funny thing is, I've seen documents for big block cars where the engine was built almost 5 months before the car was produced.
That would be pretty rare I think. Why would production be that far ahead of potential car?

And what if the engine failed before the vehicle was delivered. Not the customers fault he doesn't have the engine the car was built with, he bought the car brand new. We had that happen at the Pontiac dealership I worked at in the 80's.
Engine would have been replaced with a "CE" block? (same as the original) and customer would be none the wiser...

All the stuff these big $$$ guys use as guidelines can have exceptions and some of the guys may not be very flexible with those exceptions. And that is when the fun goes out of the hobby.
If you have the documentation it should fly. But Vette and Camaro restorers have a lot of guys who worked on the production line or in the office and can substantiate some of these rarities. Over and above this...It's NOT a hobby at this level, it's BIG business

DonSSDD · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

I saw a car numerous years ago, a 1945 Ford 2 door coupe, under 20,000 miles, always stored indoors. Original paint, interior, 100% of the car was original except the paint on the 2 front fenders. A little old lady from Chester, NS owned it and she would scrape the fenders on the garage door when entering and leaving the garage. She bought the car new in the USA. The family were from Pennsylvania iirc, very wealthy old money family, they would buy a new Cadillac every year which they couldnt do during the war so they bought the first new car they could after the war, the 1945 Ford. After they got a new 1946 Cadillac, they moved the ford here to their summer home.

The guy who owned the car took it to an all original concours show, probably Hershey, he got deducted points because the car had a prewar carburetor. He said after the war when they were building cars, they probably just grabbed whatever they had off the shelf.

Numbers matching is in the eye of the beholder.

Same guy had the last big Lincoln built about 1978 (?), loaded with about 1,000 miles, he bought it new. He was also into prewar Packards as well as fords. Had about 15 cars when I knew him.

66 Grande guy · Canadian Poncho Superstar!

If I remember right the 396 engine in my 66 Grande was dated stamped in July 65 and the car was not built until late October 65. I always figured that they just went quite slowly through the initial batch of the big blocks delivered to Canada as they sort of trickled off the line compared to the small blocks or sixes.

I always find it amusing that some people take this stuff so seriously when the factory was just motivated to make cars as fast and as cheaply as the market would let them get away with. Not to mention the workers who just wanted to get through the shift so they could get home or to the bar.