Next up is a Ventura (actually a Catalina with the Ventura interior trim option) 2 seat wagon.  Another car with an interesting story, the original owner was a wealthy rancher in Central Oregon (funny how many of my cars come from there coincidentally).  His wife won a new car (a stripped down 69 Firebird coupe) on a "Good Morning America" TV show in December 68.  They had no interest in that car so ABC and Pontiac Motor Division sent him several letters (I have them) pestering him to come get the car at his local dealer.  He relented when they told him he could take any Pontiac he wanted and just pay the difference if it cost more.  So he took this wagon (standard 290 horse 400 2bbl premium fuel), TH400, AC, power steering and power drum brakes, AM radio, tinted glass, whitewalls, power tailgate, lamp group (cornering and reel out underhood), warning lights (belts, lamps and low fuel) and the Ventura trim (which gave you the interior from the Executive model and specific emblems).  The window sticker was $5,000 and the Firebird was $3,000 so he wrote them a check for $2,000.  Owning a lot of ranches he had his own plane with a climate controlled hanger. 

The car was kept there under blankets till I bought it in 2014 when the then 100 year old original owner died.  It has 20k odd miles but looks like 2k miles.  All the miles were him taking it out for a Sunday drive once a month.  Everything was 100% original right down to the paint, interior, everything.  All I did is replace the dry rotted tires with Coker replacements and I replaced the back half of the exhaust with NOS.  Carb and rad have never been touched, wires, plugs etc are still original along with belts and hoses etc.  Amazing time warp car.  The reason it has dogdish and no window moldings is apparently there was a misunderstanding, The Catalina did not come with a decor group unless you ordered it but the dealer assumed (mistakenly) that the Ventura trim group included decor but it did not.  So the car has dogdish, two spoke hard plastic steering wheel and painted side window moldings.  We call it the "US Forest Service" car because it looks like it comes out of a Lassie episode or something!

 

Chrome exhaust tip was standard on wagons, probably to avoid shin cuts! 

   

Interesting that the factory engine paint is not at all like the silver-blue sold everywhere for 67-71 Pontiac engines 

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 05:59:18 PM

Next is a Catalina ragtop, nice original car, originally from Missouri but obviously never winter driven because she is absolutely rust free.  Don't know much about ownership history but seems to be two long term owners, first was a steel worker in a big steel mill outside of Saint Louis.  Paint looks nice in pics but is a 70's lacquer reshoot that is cracking like an old cue ball!  Interior is original except for carpets look repop and some dying was done here and there I assume to address fading.  Heavily optioned by Catalina standards with a 428 (the regular 360 horse version that was standard in Bonnevilles), AC, PDB, steering and all the power options.  Color is Cameo white, Ivory top and red bench interior.  Nice cruiser but the Catalina seat really can't compare to the heavy deep foam of the Brougham.  Being a late production car, it has the darker grille. 

 

The white glob of paint on the snorkel is some kind of factory marking, I have a Grand Prix with the same thing.

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 06:00:20 PM

Next up is a 4 door sedan version of the Executive.  The Executive was a cheaper cousin of the Bonneville in that it shared the longer body (224" and 125" wheelbase versus 217 and 122" on the Catalina) but with the trim of the Ventura equipped Catalina.  Decor group was also standard.  This one came from an oil well company employee in South Dakota.  I also bought it from the son of the original owner.  Relatively well optioned with AC, power drum brakes and steering, AC and power seat, windows etc but it has the base 290-400 2bbl and single exhaust.  Mostly original paint and all original interior and mechanicals.  It does drive tighter than the hardtops and the interior is taller than the hardtops, sort of set up for the old Chrysler hat wearing people of lore!

The fender and doors here are both original paint.  The fenders and hood were painted separately from the doghouse so you see the color difference here.  Every original paint car has a bit of this but it shows more on some cars than others.  Btw, this car and the green wagon I posted earlier are both Verdoro Green and both are original paint but from different plants.  There is a reason why there were several service bulletins about color matching Verdoro! 

  

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 06:04:30 PM

Last and in some ways least is another Bonneville convertible that I bought this summer. It came out of Ohio also and I'm the third owner. First owner drove it two years and then the second owner had it till this year. It is Midnight Green with Parchment guts and an Ivory top. First owner drove it year round so a bit scaly underneath but not long enough that any of the body panels have body work. It was repainted the original color many years ago and the interior and mechanicals are untouched. Top is original also but it has had it, will replace it this year. Option wise it is on the low side with base 428-360, single exhaust, TH400, no AC and only the basic stuff like Power disc brakes and steering and little stuff like STT diff and tinted glass etc.

It isn't in the condition I usually look for but I have a cottage on the ocean in Maine and I wanted a car I could keep in my garage there all summer.  And even though I have a garage the salt air is there regardless so I never bring my minty cars there.  This one is in the perfect condition for what I need, no major body work or worries about brake or gas lines etc but not so nice that I feel guilty using it there.  We can be slaves to our cars!  My plans for the car are just to get it running reliably, install a nice Waldron factory dual exhaust (can't stand that farm tractor tail pipe on it now!) and probably add a factory 8 track since AM is basically extinct in Southern Maine.

Pictures make it look nicer than it really is but it's a fine 10-20 footer.

  

 

Thank-you John for posting these beautiful Pontiacs. Very informative as well.

John, there can never be enough 1969 Pontiac pictures on this site 

The 4 door "dog legs" are particularly interesting.

The sedans are wider than the Canadian cars.

However, the wagon appears to be identical to the Canadian dog leg.

Is the Bonneville wagon actually shorter than the sedan ?

It looks like the Catallina wagon is the same lenth as a Bonneville wagon. 

Thanks guys! As for the dog legs here is the dope on body sizes:

All except wagons:

The Catalina (Ventura) uses a 122" wheelbase while all the Canadian models use the 119" chevy wheelbase chassis. Despite this they have identical body length (217.5"), and share doors and quarter panels. The way this happens is for two reasons, first the chevy chassis has the front axle one inch closer to the firewall than the Pontiac chassis. The Canadian front fender looks the same but the wheel opening is actually shifted one inch back within the fender. The other two inches difference in wheelbase is captured in back. The chevy chassis has the rear axle positioned two inches closer to the firewall than the Pontiac Catalina chassis. GM Canada chose to still use the Catalina quarter panel so the 2" difference results in the Canadian cars having the rear axle scrunched forward 2" instead of being centered in the wheel opening.

The Bonneville (Executive) uses a 125" wheelbase, the extra three inches is all in the back with the front of the quarter panels having three extra inches there compared to the Catalina. This is far more noticeable on 4 doors in the dog leg. They also have an extra three additional inches of rear overhang compared to the Catalina so the overall body length is six inches longer (223.5" and 224" on the Bonneville thanks to the 1/2" of rear bumper pad protruding past the bumper). Remember that the Bonneville is a B special, not a C body (like the 225, 98 and caddies) so interior dimensions and floor pan are identical on all B bodies from Impala to all Pontiac to LeSabre and 88.

Wagons:

The American wagons all use a hybrid of the Catalina and Bonneville chassis. The wheelbase is 122 like the Catalina but the rear frame overhang is from the Bonneville. This results in a 220.5" body dimension. All wagons, US and Canadian have the same overall length since the chevy frame used on Canadian poncho wagons is also three inches longer in terms of rear overhang. This is why there are three different lengths of the ribbed rocker moldings used on the Bonneville and the Grande Parisienne: One for the non-wagon Bonnevilles, another that is 3" shorter for a Bonneville wagon and finally the GP one is one inch shorter again (because of the different Canadian front fender wheel opening).

The US frame is quite a bit heftier than the chevy frame, the rails are deeper and wider than the chevy frame, it has an extra crossmember. The chassis is also quite different in terms of suspension with the chevy not using the front lower control A arm or the 4 control arm rear suspension seen on the Pontiac chassis.

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 05:55:01 PM

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 05:57:19 PM

-- Edited by North on Monday 18th of December 2023 05:57:52 PM

I've found them in a variety of ways, mostly eBay but some were word of mouth, Craig List etc. The best place to get good deals is Facebook Marketplace but I hate using it because you can't easily search large areas at once. The people who sell on facebook tend to be doing it because they couldn't bother to pay for eBay or other national exposure sites. This is what creates the opportunities price wise.

Prices for these low value cars have doubled in the last five or so years but I think things are softening up a lot in the last six months.

All good, but did the USA car ever have the more advanced 3 link rear lol!

The Chevy full-size frame uses a straight lower arm with a separate stay rod up front and in the rear it uses two lower control arms and a single or double panhard bar up top. The US Pontiac frame uses a more typical lower A arm up front and 4 linear control arms for the rear, functionally the same suspension design as the A body set up on 68-72. Also the Chevy rear springs ride on the lower control arm while the US frame has the springs perched on the axle tubes. The Canadian and US cars drive very differently, the US models feel bigger and heavier, more solid. The Canadian models feel more like a mid sized car, not as rigid but nimbler, more responsive. One of these days I should weigh my 2+2 and my Catalina 2 door hardtops. Both are lowish option with standard engine and auto trans. Curious the weight difference? The 400 probably weighs 100-150 pounds more than a chev 350. Th400 is probably 30 pounds heavier than the th350. Body weight should be identical so any additional difference would be diff and frame.

Interesting perspective on the ride characteristics of the USA vs the Chevy chassis. Sounds about how I would imagine it to be.

Generally speaking, it's known that most Chevrolet B's 65-68 equipped with a V8 would have 4 arms in the rear, with the very most basic cars getting a single upper. But not always. Sometimes the base cars got the 4 arms AND a 12 bolt. Production parts availability likely dictated these builds.

 

Thanks again for the gallery!

On the subject of the body differences, I ended up having two 4 doors in my home garage for the winter.  So here is an interesting look at the major differences between the 4 door hardtop and 4 door sedan.  While both are long wheelbase American models the roof lines and windows and doors etc are identical on all US and Canadian models.  Surprisingly they use different windshields (One for 4 door sedan and wagon, another for all other models including ragtops).  The difference is the 4 door sedan roof is an inch taller than the hardtop. 

The roofline is quite different with the hardtop having a sharp ridge line running the length of the roof and flowing into the quarter panel right to the rear bumper.  There is also a crisp vertical line at the front of the C pillar and the back door glass has a sharp corner.  The back glass has a pronounced ridge down the center, a precursor to the 71-76 B bodies.  This also required a 4 door hardtop specific filler panel between the back glass and trunk.

The Sedan as mentioned has a higher windshield, a more domed roof without any of the crisp feature lines on the side.  Instead of the leading edge line of the quarters flowing forward to the windshield it loops around the top of the back glass and then back down the otherside.  The back glass is also convex but without the center ridge, the filler panel is different also for that reason.

Hard to believe GM spent this kind of extra engineering and tooling rather than just have them the same with or without window frames and B pillars.  Generally a hardtop was about $150 US dollars more (about $1,200 or $1,600 2023 CAN $) than the equivalent post car so there was incentive to draw people to the higher profit hardtops. I like both but I think the 69-70 B body 4 door hardtop roof was one of the cleanest, crispest lithe roof lines of the era. 

BTW, when you sit in them you feel the difference, the sedan (and wagon) have an airier forward vision with the taller windshield while the hardtop has a more hunkered down feel from the drivers seat.  There is something extra pleasant about a 4 door hardtop with all the windows down though.