Yes Hillar we are not saying 1st gen Firebirds were built here. The real question is how was the Trans AM sanctioning boody convinced enough to allow 302 Chevy powered Firebirds to run. They must have had some proof positive that the cars were actually available in Canada, at least that's how the story goes. Firebirds ran in Trans AM with 302 Chevy power, that is an undisputable fact. The rationale for permitting this was because the cars were available with Chevy power in Canada, whether it was true or not. In 69 Pontiac fixed the "problem" by destroking a 400 to 303.
All Firebirds were US built back then for sure, but Canada had an export division with a CKD ( complete knock down ) program for shipping vehicles to overseas markets. The Z/28 Camaro was the result of homologation requirements for minimum build of certain components to qualify the vehicle for the SCCA Trans Am sedan series. You have not seen a 302 Firebird? Very rare bird, a few ran in the late 60's, several from Quebec come to mind, white with black hoods ( I believe Gagnon was the name on the side for sponsorship). That is about all I can say....
All Firebirds were US built back then for sure, but Canada had an export division with a CKD ( complete knock down ) program for shipping vehicles to overseas markets. The Z/28 Camaro was the result of homologation requirements for minimum build of certain components to qualify the vehicle for the SCCA Trans Am sedan series. You have not seen a 302 Firebird? Very rare bird, a few ran in the late 60's, several from Quebec come to mind, white with black hoods ( I believe Gagnon was the name on the side for sponsorship). That is about all I can say....
Thanks George, it's nice to see you on here! I am still a little confused though, how would these 302 Firebirds come about? The engines must have been dealer or owner installed, I can't see them having been installed in any GM factory? Can you at least confirm that?
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Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
All Firebirds were US built back then for sure, but Canada had an export division with a CKD ( complete knock down ) program for shipping vehicles to overseas markets. The Z/28 Camaro was the result of homologation requirements for minimum build of certain components to qualify the vehicle for the SCCA Trans Am sedan series. You have not seen a 302 Firebird? Very rare bird, a few ran in the late 60's, several from Quebec come to mind, white with black hoods ( I believe Gagnon was the name on the side for sponsorship). That is about all I can say....
That is what we always wanted to know, Taking from George's "That is about all I can say....." means to me that the Firebirds came to Oshawa and were sent to CKD, where they could be disassembled and of course reassembled or modified. CKD most likely modified them with small block Chevy power and shipped them within Canada and the USA, probably mostly to dealers with connections to the racing teams. I think there had to be something like 200 cars produced in this manner to meet SCCA requirements, CKD is a cool acronym.
I agree with Vincent, it is awesome getting this kind of expert info. Thanks George!
1968 Terry Godsall's T/G Racing Firebird in Trans Am livery - 302 sbc V8 1st in class and 3rd overall in 1969 Daytona 24 hours race
-- Edited by 73SC on Wednesday 15th of July 2009 07:59:52 AM
I don't know the production figures, but 1970 was the only year that GTO Judge rolled off the line in Oshawa. Of those there was only ONE powered by the L75 455 (a torque motor; the Ram Air 400s were the hot ones that year).
In here is my cowl tag for my 70 OO Judge.. There seems to be another bunch of messages coming in on numbers on Goats built in Oshawa in 70
73sc, i did not say that, but interesting concept :)
I may be able to shed a little more light on this subject. One of the best things about coming to Woodward is visiting all of the used bookstores that are absolutely loaded with transportation literature. One of my friends picked up a book about pony cars that has the following passage in it:
"...neither Pontiac or the SCCA had reckoned on a cagey Canadian, Terry Godsall. His 1968 Firebird easily passed inspection because of its 302 cid Camaro Z-28 engine. When officials questioned this, Godsall replied that this was a Canadian Firebird. Full-size Canadian Pontiacs like the Parisienne were built wtih Chevy engines, but not Firebirds. SCCA bought the story anyway, and let this "Firebird Z-28" compete. Jerry Titus did the driving, but scored no major wins. Had things been different, however, ther might have a protest. When Godsall updated the car to 1969 specs, the SCCA caught on. For some reason they made him put the 68 grille ont the 1969 body, felt better about that, and let him run with the Chevy engine."
Looks like those guys at SCCA were not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, or a bit too trusting of what us Canadians told them!
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Hillar
1970 LS4 (eventually an LS5) Laurentian 2dr hdtp -and a bunch of other muscle cars...
It is not the same as what GZ wrote. I know it is difficult to accept for a lot of people but GZ is saying there were many such equipped cars, not this cute story about Godsall and the stupidity of an international governing body like the SCCA. That's a joke. Godsall's family owned the distribution rights to the GM-Euclid distributor for Eastern Canada, so he was someone with proper connections. ,GZ refers to several Quebec cars and Godsall was in Toronto. The Quebec cars GZ refers to are Gagnon Springs sponsored cars out of Montreal.
I scanned a page from an old Trans Am program and you will see that Craig Fischer drove a Firebird that day for Gagnon Springs. It's obvious that Godsall didn't have the only one as GZ has already said.
-- Edited by 73SC on Saturday 15th of August 2009 04:07:42 PM
I think that we must realise on the SCCA stuff in the old days there is no definitive answer, I was just showing another way it could have been done. Paperwork could be created in the old days to cover these homologation issues, vehicles could be shipped/assembled any way that was required, and CKD was probably the way it could have been 'processed' and seems the most likely to me, but in reality someone just paper stamped the application and there you go. We show F bodies being shipped through Canada to overseas destinations, but have no vin numbers for these units. Jim M from Pontiac Historic Services and I discussed this issue a while ago and we both remember this homologation happening at the time, we were younger then, but we are both too old to remember the details ( sorry Jim). So until someone can find the original document in the SCCA archives we can keep the forums running for a while longer.......
I love reading your posts GZ, makes signing on a lot of fun! I think we have enough information now to formulate a plausible explanation on how these 302 Firebirds came to exist.
