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Canadian Poncho Homepage -> Canadian Poncho -> 65-70 Full Size Power Train Tech Forum -> And So It Begins- The Big Block Swap
Post Info TOPIC: And So It Begins- The Big Block Swap
427carl


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RE: And So It Begins- The Big Block Swap
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Long vs short water pump

R. - I may be swapping my weak 6cyl in my 66 chevelle for a later model 454 and I'm wondering which power steering brackets to use and work with the existing car. Will the brackets for a 70's truck motor work? Thanks Rob

B.T. - Depends if you are going to use a short or long water pump. The 66 had the short water pump and if you use the long water pump your fan will be very close to the radiator and the fan shroud will not fit. If using the propper short water pump you will need 67 or earlier brackets to mount the steering pump the later truck brackets will not work.

D.C. - When we installed the 396 in my son's 67 SS I used the power stearing pump, brackets and reservoir from a 71 Suburban with a 402, using a short water pump and mounted the alternator on the driver's side. It almost looks original.

G.M. - For the short water pump setup, 68 brackets will also work, and big block p/s brackets for 66-68 are available through the reprodution places. One thing though, on 68 and ealier the power steering pump on a big block had a externally mounted reseviour, so your existing pump will not work with this setup. I don't know if the existing pump would work in a long water pump setup or not.

R. - Does the long water pump for the later big blocks work in a 64 to 67 chevelle or do you need to use the short water pump and accessory brackets. When swapping in a big block what is a good setup for water pump, pulleys, brackets, and is their a good place to buy the whole setup. Like year one?

B.T. - You will need the short water pump and brackets for a 64 to 67 chevelle. If you use the long water pump the fan will be too close to the radiator and the fan shroud will not fit. I do not know of a one stop shop for your brackets.

L.I. - I went through Muscle Factory to get all the brackets for my 67 big block. As for pulleys, since I wasn't going the stock route, I went with March underdrive pulleys through Jegs or Summit. The aluminum looks great and maybe adds a few hp in the process.

K.T. - Ted Williams Enterprises, 5615 Route 45, Lisbon, Ohio 44432 probably has the parts you need. Phone (330) 424-9413. He has quite a selection of brackets and pulleys. Check out the deep groove pulleys that are available.

A.J. - How stupid I feel. 1000 times for 25 years I have heard of long and short water pumps. How long is long and how short is short -- Measured from where?????

T.J. - Small block chevys used short leg h2o pumps on all passenger cars thru 1968 and on all Corvettes. The mounting surface of the leg(block side) to front of pump housing(non outlet side) is roughly 2 inches. Big block chevys (yeah) used short leg pumps from 1965 thru 1968 and on all corvettes. Pumps after this time were long leg design. Mounting surface of the leg to front of pump housing(non outlet side) is roughly 4 inches. Note: Though the name is the same, the small and big block pumps are not the same. Big block pumps have a bypass provision on the top of the pump, little blocks do not.

This Tech Article donated by TEAM CHEVELLE



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2drpost


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69Laurentian wrote:

Well, something weird is going on. I test fit the water pump pulley today and it hits the water pump housing! Any chance the hub could be pressed too far in on the shaft?


you need a '69-'72 pulley, big or sm blk are the same
or...
use the '73+ up pump, pulleys are easier to find

the difference is the shape the housing is cast
your pulley will fit this pump (sm blk shown, but same ribbed neck)...

SalleeZZ430.jpg

 



-- Edited by 69 belair on Saturday 29th of January 2011 08:47:30 PM

-- Edited by 69 belair on Saturday 29th of January 2011 08:48:45 PM

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4SPEED427


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Also make sure you get a pulley with the correct bolt pattern. There is a big and a small bolt pattern.

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The pulley came off this 454 however it had the original water pump. I can't remember what year I specified when I ordered this pump.

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Canadian Poncho


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Does anyone have a 69-72 water pump pulley? I could use the one off my 350 however I'd like to keep it complete just in case a candidate for it comes along..

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Elroy


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Todd the 336 posi would be great ! I would leave the springs until after the swap, you just might like the way it sits and the headers will save a few pounds and if you go alum intake too... just a thought ! Maybe a 2000 stall converter though and a shift kit in that TH350??

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Canadian Poncho


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Thanks for the suggestions Elroy. There is actually an aluminum intake on the engine-disguised under a coat of orange paint.

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I checked Ebay. There's a pile of BBC water pump pulleys but none specifiy what year they fit. They all say either long or short water pump.

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tin indian


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hey todd, i,m running a long water pump on mine as well. i,m having the same issues as you right now as well, as i,m almost ready to fire mine up. with the long water pump, i found a pulley from a 78-84 bb from a truck fits well. the one i,m using, comes off of a motor home. when tou get your p.s. pump and brackets figured out, let me know what you went with. i need the same setup.

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seventy2plus2


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69Laurentian wrote:

Does anyone have a 69-72 water pump pulley? I could use the one off my 350 however I'd like to keep it complete just in case a candidate for it comes along..


For my 1970, the same water pump pulley was used for both 350 & 454 engines.  I've got the stamping number at home.  I probably have a spare pulley, so I could either sell you one, or you could get from ebay, etc.    I'll PM you tonight with the stamping number.   They are quite a bit larger than the LS6 Chevelle ones. 

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Canadian Poncho


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I'd rather buy from someone on here than on Ebay. Thanks


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Canadian Poncho


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Also, what kind of grief am I going to have hooking up the power steering pump? Will the 350 bracket work on the 454?


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seventy2plus2


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seventy2plus2 wrote:

69Laurentian wrote:

Does anyone have a 69-72 water pump pulley? I could use the one off my 350 however I'd like to keep it complete just in case a candidate for it comes along..


For my 1970, the same water pump pulley was used for both 350 & 454 engines.  I've got the stamping number at home.  I probably have a spare pulley, so I could either sell you one, or you could get from ebay, etc.    I'll PM you tonight with the stamping number.   They are quite a bit larger than the LS6 Chevelle ones. 
Water pump pulley stamping is 3932402.

 



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seventy2plus2


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69Laurentian wrote:

Also, what kind of grief am I going to have hooking up the power steering pump? Will the 350 bracket work on the 454?



I can't comment on the 69 big block brackets, if I recall they changed from 69 to 70.  For my 70, the small block vs big block power steering pump brackets are different.  The top bracket (adjuster) was a little tough to get (lots around, but people want a few bucks for them) and the bottom bracket is available but has been redesigned by GM.  The power steering pump itself is different from small block to big block as the outlet hose moves from the back (small block) to the side (big block).   I actually got a rebuilt one at NAPA that was 100% correct.

Here's a good view of the 1970 big block brackets:   (note, the rear outlet of the power steering pump line - proper for a small block)

 32_1.jpg

And here's a rear view of a big block power steering pump.

70 454 Power Steering Pump.jpg

I presume the 1969 pump would be the same, but I know the pressure connection has the opposite sex than the one above.   It has the nipple coming out of the pump, and the hose connects to it.  The pressure hose is available at NAPA.



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tin indian


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69Laurentian wrote:

Also, what kind of grief am I going to have hooking up the power steering pump? Will the 350 bracket work on the 454?


i know from the expirience i,m having right now with the same setup as yours, i dont think it will work todd. i,m trying the same as you , but a 66 283 to a 454 setup. the brackets arent even close. i,m working on a remedy as well

 



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Canadian Poncho


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Great. More parts chasing...cry

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73SC


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I might know a guy Todd. wink

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Canadian Poncho


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smile Thanks Ray.

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seventy2plus2


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69 Big Block Power Steering Bracket Sets (3 pieces):
Classic Industries   part # KW418   $59.95
Year One    part # CQ418   $83.00
I suspect these are made by the same place, as they both have 418 in the part #.

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Canadian Poncho


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My Ebay water pump pulley arrived so I installed it tonight. Turns out the original 454 Crank pully now interferes with the new larger diameter water pump pulley. So, since I hear the crank pully from my 69 350 is the same as the 427 I removed it and bolted it to the 454. It clears however I'm not happy with the pully alignment:
427 002.jpg

Is it ok to put a washer behind the crank pulley to bring it out slightly?

Here's the state of the Laurentian:
427 004.jpg
427 005.jpg

We're getting closer to the point of removal. I want to make sure the 454 is completely ready to install before I remove too much from the engine bay.



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427carl


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69Laurentian wrote:

 

427 002.jpg

Is it ok to put a washer behind the crank pulley to bring it out slightly?




I spaced mine out to align better   Seems to hold up to 7200 RPM

 



 



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67rag396


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427carl wrote:

 



I spaced mine out to align better   Seems to hold up to 7200 RPM

 



 

3rd gear limit!!!!
You might want to limit you redline to 6800 to be safe.

Bowling's Vehicle MPH Calculator

Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 1.00 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 204

1st gear limit!!!!

Bowling's Vehicle MPH CalculatorInput Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 2.52 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 81

 



-- Edited by 67rag396 on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 10:42:00 PM

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4SPEED427


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I didn't think you can use the 350 pulley on the 427. Yes, the bolt pattern is fine and it will fit. However, doesn't it have a bevel on the back that fits into the center of the balancer? That is designed to perfectly centre the pulley on the balancer and hold it there I think.

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427carl


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67rag396 wrote:

 

427carl wrote:

 



I spaced mine out to align better   Seems to hold up to 7200 RPM

 



 

3rd gear limit!!!!
You might want to limit you redline to 6800 to be safe.

Bowling's Vehicle MPH Calculator

Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 1.00 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 204

1st gear limit!!!!

Bowling's Vehicle MPH CalculatorInput Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 2.52 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 81

 



-- Edited by 67rag396 on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 10:42:00 PM

 


Excellent !  you have the exact figures...    did you calculate form 4200. lbs?

 



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67rag396


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427carl wrote:

 

67rag396 wrote:

 

427carl wrote:

 



I spaced mine out to align better   Seems to hold up to 7200 RPM

 



 

3rd gear limit!!!!
You might want to limit you redline to 6800 to be safe.

Bowling's Vehicle MPH Calculator

Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 1.00 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 204

1st gear limit!!!!

Bowling's Vehicle MPH CalculatorInput Parameters Are the Following:
  • Differential Gear = 2.73 to 1
  • Transmission Gear = 2.52 to 1
  • Tire Diameter (Inches) = 27.50
  • Engine RPM = 6800

Computation Results:

Computed Vehicle MPH is 81

 



-- Edited by 67rag396 on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 10:42:00 PM

 


Excellent !  you have the exact figures...    did you calculate form 4200. lbs?

 


Nope. I believe the number is 4,022 lbs with 454/350 and El Supremo on board and only 1/2 a tank of gas. Your number would be correct with full tank and Mrs. El Supremo as well!!!!!

 



-- Edited by 67rag396 on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 11:26:19 PM

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